引用:
原帖由 細拉 於 30-8-2008 15:59 發表首先，要向版主綠寶210解釋一下我的「意圖」。我在「基督教之迷」版面只是發言過一次，算不上甚麼粉絲。不過，「基督教之迷」中不少老餅都提出很多值得討論的議題，令我這個沒有太多時間上網的老餅都興致渤渤， ...
原帖由 細拉 於 30-8-2008 15:59 發表
既然各位對宗教討論真係咁有興趣, 我當然不能阻止咁掃興.
希望各位盡力克制自己去理性討論，免傷和氣，萬勿罵戰。
謝謝合作。
How to continue ? since the old is gone ?
原帖由 拾實什習窄炸集 於 30-8-2008 23:07 發表
拾爺都好有興趣?
舊貼仲喺度. http://www.oldcake.net/viewthread.php?tid=9904
會唔會遲D搞到有埋佛教之迷, 道教之迷, 其他宗教之迷,
還有...無神論之迷?
原本諗住做版主係一份優差.
[ 本帖最後由 綠寶210 於 30-8-2008 23:21 編輯 ]
原帖由 綠寶210 於 30-8-2008 22:52 發表
原帖由 細拉 於 31-8-2008 03:24 發表
說是錯哂；也不過份呢。
對一些主要的思想或概念（聖經中）；若翻譯錯了；那其他的旁支內容就算是跟足了原來經文的原意；又如何？那還是跟著錯吧.......
周兆祥的意思就是這樣。
打個譬喻：一個火車頭入錯了軋道；後面的所有一個帶一個的車卡；免不了也跟著行錯了...........
他是曾在學院教翻譯；所以對語文翻譯的正確或錯誤的判斷；有專業的水準。
至於周生講得唔夠詳細；是啊！那講座的內容；主要的不是談論聖經的真偽嘛。
[ 本帖最後由 火馬 於 31-8-2008 08:25 編輯 ]原帖由 火馬 於 31-8-2008 08:19 發表
原帖由 火馬 於 31-8-2008 08:19 發表
天主教聖經中文譯本:
思高聖經
http://www.catholic.org.tw/bible/index.html
牧靈聖經
http://www.21music.org/NEW/BLESSING/bible2/index.htm
講真, 呢類話題好易引起「大火併」, 尤其係當各會員有不同宗教背景同立場嘅時候, 真係會傷和氣, 所以我都希望版主考慮一下宗教話題是否適合呢個論壇。
p.s. 在下係天主教徒。
原帖由 LouisLee 於 31-8-2008 20:57 發表
原帖由 LouisLee 於 31-8-2008 20:57 發表
宗教話題是否適合呢個論壇不是由我這個小小版主作主呢. 
今天已PM 給TOBY 網主, 請各位耐心等待消息.
The only way to find out is study the origianl Bible (Old Testment in Hebrew, New testment in Greek), but you must learn and understand Hebrew and Greek Language first, so if you start to learn these 2 languages today...then I afraid you won't have time to
complete them, because the Lord Christ already return before you finish these 2 language studies...
大家對聖經譯本咁有興趣，在此小弟向各位多介紹一個譯本，就是由海外華人學者馮象所譯的摩西五經。馮象其實不是基督徒，但他對近東語言有深入的研究，他指出和合本有偏差的地方，本著對人類文化經典傳承的信念，便著手重譯。他的譯本被聖經翻譯學者黃錫木所推崇。
再者，雖然譯本有和合本有偏差，但基都督教的神學是建立在原文的研究上，所以個譯本的不足不應構成主要/核心信仰的偏差。
原帖由 Potato 於 1-9-2008 23:39 發表
Is this a KJM Chinese version ?
原帖由 Potato 於 2-9-2008 14:05 發表
You can see there: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/bible/bible_index.html
拾兄有興趣可參考以下兩個網頁：
http://sfngan.blogspot.com/2007/04/blog-post_17.html
http://failforum.net/forum/redirect.php?tid=646339&goto=lastpost
原帖由 Potato 於 2-9-2008 21:10 發表
Thanks brother...
By the way do you know any online store I can buy this book ? And they can ship it internatioanl too ( Because I am in USA )
?
拾兄，幫你找到這個：
http://www.hkbookcity.com/showbook2.php?serial_no=102557
不過現時缺貨。
原帖由 Potato 於 3-9-2008 00:34 發表
Thanks Brother Potato...
I will try to visit that web site again later to see if they have that in stock or not.
Any Chrsitain brothers or sister believe below message is correct or not ?
| I Hope God Will Save Me
by Harold Camping | ||||
|
| ||||
|
Chapter 1 | ||||
|
| ||||
| 1 | ||||
|
God created this world about 13,000 years ago. At that time, beginning with our first parents, Adam and Eve, He created mankind in His image and likeness. But mankind rebelled against God, and as a punishment, all of mankind came under the wrath of God. This rebellion was so serious that according to God’s law, man would not only lose his eternal existence with God but would also be destroyed forever by annihilation on the last day of this earth’s existence. And so, many people cry, “I desperately want to be saved from that sentence of eternal destruction.” Every human being knows there is a God who holds him accountable for his sins. This is because mankind was created in the image and likeness of God. And even though he is estranged from God because of his rebellion against God, the knowledge of God, and his accountability to God, is present within his personality. We read in Romans 2:13-15, and in these verses, the word “Gentiles” is pointing to all of the people of the world who have no knowledge of the Bible:
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; All mankind, therefore, intuitively knows it is sin, that is, a transgression of God’s law, to murder, to steal, to commit adultery, etc. He also intuitively knows that God requires punishment for his sins. Therefore, every human being tries to find a way by which he can be reconciled to God. That is, he wishes to find a way whereby he can escape the awful punishment of his sins. | ||||
|
Chapter 1 | ||||
|
| ||||
| 2 | ||||
|
Some try to solve this awful problem by convincing themselves that there is no God to whom they must answer. In that case, they try very hard to be an atheist or an evolutionist or an agnostic. Others have designed gods that they worship. They make a god of wood or stone, like the Buddhist, or, like the astrologist, they look upon the planets and stars as some kind of god, or, like many people, they find some religion with which they can be comfortable. That religion may have no connection at all with the Bible or it may utilize some Bible verses to support it. So, they find the religion that they believe can best reconcile themselves to God. The fact is that today, about one-third of the population of the world calls themselves “Christian.” This means that they identify with a religion that uses parts of the Bible to support its claim that it is the Gospel that will bring people to God. Each and every religion, whether very slightly related to the Bible, or whether apparently quite true to the Bible, claims that it has the most correct way to become reconciled to God. This is true of well-known denominations such as Roman Catholic, Baptist, Reformed, Presbyterian, Seventh- Day Adventist, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc. Sadly, none of these denominations has a sufficient understanding of the nature of what is required for an individual to become reconciled with God, that is, to become saved from the wrath of God, which is the punishment for their sin.
Unfortunately, those who have placed their trust for their salvation in any of these religions are still in deep trouble with God because their religion cannot save them, and they are not listening carefully to the only source of truth, the Bible. | ||||
做乜開個宗教咁敏感既貼,想問呢度有冇人去過耶和華見證人D聚會?
,不過唔知好彩定唔好彩閃得快.
原帖由 Potato 於 1-9-2008 23:39 發表
真好，重未停版，又可以同大家見面。
Potato 果然舉重若輕，將好複雜0既解釋，非常簡潔地總括起來。其實 "拾爺" 不必學懂書寫聖經那些古文字，才可以了解聖經。同其他經典著作一樣，聖經都有不少註釋或研究，可供閱覽。譯本中個別字眼未能充分表達的意思，可以在這一類著作中獲得較深入的研習。
最後還是要講一些聖經譯「錯」0既 case。例子之一，希臘文表達「愛」的字眼有 4 種，但中文聖經只能用同一個「愛」字翻譯，未能盡其精髓。
類似的問題出現在「地獄」一詞的翻譯。到過維基百科「地獄」條目的人都知道，希臘文聖經「地獄」一詞有時指耶路撒冷城外一個焚燒垃圾、屍體的欣嫩子谷。中文「地獄」一詞源自佛教，乃六道之一。佛教認為「地獄」是現存的東西，但聖經的「地獄」﹝火湖﹞卻在歷史的終結時才出場，似乎不是現存的東西，所以，又譯錯？？
其他例子，諸如「罪」，希伯來文本意與「射箭不中紅心」有關，引申為行事為人偏離上帝的標準。若果要更切合原意，譯做「過失」、「錯失」可能比較接近「射失」的原意。不過試想想，把有關聖經內文的「罪」都「更正」為「錯失」，事實上，令這個譯本變得更好﹝由 40 分上升至 41 分﹞，還是改同唔改，有乜分別﹝依舊得 40 分﹞？
我記得﹝出處唔知有冇錯﹞一個近期的例子，威克理夫聖經翻譯會 (Wycliffe Bible Translators) 有一次為非洲﹝？﹞一個部落翻譯聖經，過程中遇上了一個難題：如何翻譯這一節？
耶和華說：你們來，我們彼此辯論。你們的罪雖像硃紅，必變成雪白；雖紅如丹顏，必白如羊毛。 聖經•以賽亞書 1 章 18 節
難就難在：這個部落，從來未見過「雪」，也沒有「雪」這個觀念，如何令他們明白「變成雪白」這回事？可以斷言，無論點譯，一定俾人話譯錯。
據我粗略的理解，翻譯不單要在兩種語文中找出對等的詞彙，也要翻出意思。故此，若果說聖經翻譯有錯，要追問點解，由於沒有對等詞彙﹝例如聖經中的「地獄」、「龍」等字眼﹞？有否引至整體意思也出錯？有沒有註釋或研究可以參考，令我們明白詞彙、概念的原意？
譯本，本來就唔係「原本」果「本」，但也不必因噎廢食，關鍵在於：環顧四周，有沒有一個素質較好的「善本」。
原帖由 細拉 於 3-9-2008 15:30 發表
應該就無野既...
祝各位討論愉快.
原帖由 細拉 於 3-9-2008 15:30 發表
細拉兄過獎了！
其實，翻譯真是十分困難的事。「語言」反映了使用該語文者的世界觀，此之所以該非洲部落沒有「雪」字的原因 -- 因為在其世界中，根本沒有「雪」這個概念。所以翻譯之難，不單是「字」對「字」的問題，而是任何翻譯也難以100%跨越「世界觀」這個鴻溝。
正因如此，我們更需要不同的譯本，讓各譯本互相補足，一方面拼湊出一幅更接近原文的圖畫，另一方面，藉不同譯本擴闊原文的意義。
（當然，本人並非翻譯家，以上所說只是外行人之見，多多包涵）
原帖由 細拉 於 3-9-2008 15:30 發表
很欣賞及贊同你的觀點。
自這個post開版以來，athena一直唔係太敢發言，因為費事一旦依自己的基督徒觀點一講「錯」說話，就會令綠寶兄難做。而家有薯仔哥的珠玉在前頂住，我又加返兩咀，如果唔岩聽當我無講過就好，懇請勿插！
個人觀點認為：
1.就算不是教友，不同意聖經是神所默示的話語，聖經作為一輯經歷二千年以上的精選古代文獻，在宗教價值以外更有哲學、倫理和考古價值，做人生參考。睇一本書可以學到幾千年的古人智慧結晶實在抵到爛，何不放下成見去吸吓好料呢？athena身為基督徒，都會間中讀下禪宗公案學野架。
2.幾千年前的猶太社會雖然同現在的香港有很大不同，譯法不一，但基本上人的心態都一樣，睇聖經古仔套返入現實，好多時看到人會心微笑。大家試吓咁去睇聖經，可能會發現到另一種樂趣呢。
3.周兆祥博士係譯文專家，佢有佢在翻譯學上的觀點。普通人看書主要是弄明白主題內容，何必執著於一字一句？我們不是要研究譯法嘛...你可以話有點難明，但你唔明唔等於係佢譯錯。
4.建議眾位朋友仔借本楊牧谷博士的「壞鬼神學」看看，因為好多類似爭拗其實在此書中早有講及。
原帖由 細拉 於 3-9-2008 15:30 發表
What I mean is if anybody want to understand the Bible correctly the onlly way is read the original verision, otherwise we can read any version without concern the accuracy, if wecan get the most accurate undertsnading then is worst then don't study Bible at all. Then it is 禍音, not the 福音. Just like a doctor gave you a medicine for your illiness, and you didn't look at the label of the medicine you just take whatever you have in the draw, then what will happen ? If you lucky nothing will happen...othwerise it is worst than dont's the doctor at all. That is my personal opion.
原帖由 Athena 於 4-9-2008 19:06 發表
只要不要互插, 對事不對人, 大家都各有得益.
理性討論, 真理是越辯越明的. 
原帖由 拾實什習窄炸集 於 4-9-2008 20:48 發表
當然，能讀原文是最理想，問題是有多少人有機會學希伯來文，希臘文。即使是神學生，他們所受的原文訓練也有限（幾個學期），除非是專攻原文的學者，否則談何容易？再者，即使能讀懂原文，還要對寫成經文的時代背景、文化、用語、習慣、文學……有相當的理解才行。講吓講吓，似乎要讀吓神學先掂~~
原帖由 Potato 於 5-9-2008 20:39 發表
But When Christ return, he may say I never say these words...it is your own misunderstanding, why don't you read the origina on even though it is very very hard for most people to learn... then what will happen to us ?
I think is each individual's will problem, not teh easy or hard issue. May be that is the way God Test us ?
Many people can spend many many years to learn English, France, Russia, Chinese, so on. Why can't we spend time in Original Bible..
I think is is 意願 issue.
When a person willing to do learn one thing. he will success eventually, that just the matter of time and what level he can reach.
原帖由 Potato 於 6-9-2008 01:50 發表
正解！最大的誡命就是愛。
聖經中有明文，就算能講萬人方言並天使的話語，沒有愛就等同嗚的鑼響的鈸一樣，也就是內裏空空，乜都唔係。
神學家未必就是最虔誠最好的基督徒，反而謝婉雯醫生、消防員陳兆龍的捨生取義行為，才是最高的標準。
每次同人討論呢d問題, 最後都幾乎會閙交收場.....
但只要我地記住, 宗教目的係導人向善, 不管神是甚麼...只要本著自己的意願去相信...不要將自己的宗教強加於人就好了....
原帖由 Potato 於 6-9-2008 01:50 發表
I mean 誤解 神的話可以造成好大禍... it may make you believe you are save but actually you are not.
That why there are many 異端...
For eample many people still believe they can divorce if they find out other half betray them...
they have this kind of thought are base on Old testment's Moses's rules, they never understand what lord Christ told them in the
New testment... Misunderstanding is the beginning of 異端.
| 歡迎光臨 經典日本特撮●動畫●卡通回憶 (http://oldcake.net/) | Powered by Discuz! 6.0.0 |